Muslims Discuss Hejab and The Polygamist Sect

SO COPIED WHO HERE?

The Polygamist world, only thing missing here is hejab?

The dresses are meant to show modesty and conformity: They go down to the ankles and wrists, and are often worn over garments or pants, making sure every possibly provocative inch of skin is covered.
John Llewellyn, a polygamy expert and retired Salt Lake County sheriff's lieutenant, says the women cover themselves "so that they're unattractive to the outside world or other men."
The appearance of unity through uniform dress, however, can belie the jealousy that often arises when the women — who might all look alike to an outsider — find themselves in competition with one another over the affections of the same man, Llewellyn says.

Omar
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AA,

Just to share some information regarding the sentiments you have shared, bro Omar.

Allah's SWT laws and instructions to His creation have been the same in all the scriptures - the Torah, Bible, and Quran. Polygamy is mentioned and allowed in all the scriptures, but humans create laws to suit themselves. In the bible, see Exodus 21 v 10, 1 Kings 11 v 3, Deuteronomy 21 v 15, and Genesis 4 v 19.

The requirements for hijab are given in the same manner in all 3 just as the sheriff has stated - "women cover themselves "so that they're unattractive to the outside world or other men." "

On top of this, women are required in all of the Abrahamic faiths to cover themselves in prayer, and then carry themselves in the same manner and respect outside their homes because ALLAH is EVER PRESENT :-). This is for their own protection, and preservation of their dignity and respect. Look at how nun's, sisters, and mothers in the church set-up cover their heads, and the same thing happens in traditional Jewish societies.

The evidence for this in the bible is in - 1 Corinthians 11 v 1-16, and also in Genesis 24 v 64-65, where Rebeka covered herself when being approached by a man who was unknown to her. The Talmud states "The sight of a woman’s hair constitutes an erotic stimulus {Berakhot 24A}", and "Jewish women, married or not, should not walk in the market place with their hair uncovered {Shulhan Arukh, Evan ha-Ezer 21:2} " In slam, we are told the same thing, and this just confirms that Islam is simply the completion of the messages from Allah SWT through His messengers to ALL HIS CREATION.

Also, in the same manner that Islam explains that men should not wear women’s clothing, and women should not wear men’s clothing, the bible says the same thing - Deuteronomy 22:5.

Also, look at the paintings and movies that depict people of the past, how are they dressed? And with the Pope, and priests and padres, how do they dress ?? For all intents and purposes, aren't they wearing kanzus?? The truth has always existed and evident, but neglected or shoved aside due to our human whims.

May Allah SWT guide us all, ameen, and may more of the truth keep coming out. I say that because, who would have thought that in America, POLYGAMY would be exposed in the manner that it has, that it exists as it does the {the people are saying they are doing this because they are following GOD'S LAW}, and the simplicity and respectability of the dress of the women would have the impact it is having. The sentiments you have shared here are shared by many others, both Muslim and non-Muslim.

Fi Amanillah,

Ali.
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Akh Ali, mashallah well said.

Abdul
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Maishallah to Ali. He has done some research! I need somebody like him to fight (by words) my many battles, not with Christians or Jews, but with everyday Muslims!

Kim
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What I want to express is this seems ok for Jews, Christians, Mormons, to dress up whatever but when we grow a beard, wear Hejab, dress in certain a way, Muslims are picked on at the airports and malls in the west and around the globe. Now the polygamist have shown that they have their own dress code, its not much different from the waht the Quran has been preaching about. Proper dress code ethics!! Get the point guys??

Omar
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Asalamu Alaikum,

I feel very sorry for these women and what they have been through. Dressed like maids, with the same sixties rock n roll hairstyle is a bit painful for me. I believe in diversity. Give them a HEJAB? I don't think so. It is in such sad situations when I wonder if the HEJAB can be a control tool and limiting in many areas of development. Please don't get me wrong, but I think it is totally unacceptable to take advantage of women who look controlled and ABUSED to score a point for "ISLAMIC DRESS CODE."

Shukran,

Mohamed Ahmed
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u're absolutely corect!

Omar
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Thank you for understanding. I hope we can take time to look deeper into the issue of HEJAB. The reason why it keeps on coming back is due to the fact that, "WE don't honestly take time to go back into the reasons why HEJAB" came into being. WE have become HEJAB and HEJAB has become US.

Is the HEJAB valid in 2008? The answer or MY answer is YES and NO.
I have attached two files and two options for accessing them. You can download both the files or you can go to the links and read the biography of, "Zaynab bint Jahsh (MABPWH)," and "Origins of HEJAB," by Mohammad Gill.

First let me ask all the Muslim and Non Muslim WOMEN to forgive me for trying to debate an issue that has never and will never affect me directly or indirectly. Some Muslim MEN and a few WOMEN might have an issue with the fact that all Muslim MEN are INDIRECTLY affected by HEJAB, but the truth is more than clear. It does not...but since I am writing about it, might be it does...no it doesn...anyway you get the point.

When it comes to HEJAB, do we take time to think, reflect, understand and then discuss, or do we just argue and then throw the towel. After reading the "Origins of HEJAB," and looking at the verses as well as the initial historical reasons for HEJAB, one would conclude that it was the men who were the main victimizers, but it is the WOMEN who had to change their way of life to accommodate the hoodlums.

"Women whatever their status, were being harassed in the streets, pursued by men who subjected them to the humiliating practice of ta'rud - literally taking up a position along a woman's path to urge her to fornicate, to commit the act of zina."

After reading, go and do more research on all types of HEJABS as well as BURQAS and why WOMEN wear them. Is it really modesty or are they protecting themselves from HOODLUMS? Don't be surprised if you find that:
(a) Most of the WOMEN who oppose or don't wear HEJAB are EDUCATED and
(b) The WOMEN who wear BURQAS are mostly UNEDUCATED

What about EDUCATED Muslim WOMEN who wear BURQAS and HEJAB?
Ummmm!! "Peer pressure."

Shukran,

Mohamed Ahmed
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Assalam Aleykum,

We should definitely empathize and sympathize with people who may find themselves in compromised positions, and do our best to help them out.

And what is the truth really as to what is happening where these women and their community are concerned? Aren't they possibly voluntarily dressing and wearing their hair as they are? This is America, they don't have to be there if they don’t want to. A call like the one that was made is all it would take for them to be rescued.

Reread your comments, and then simply just put Muslim women in the picture instead of those women - see the similarities of sentiments that non-Muslims share about Muslim women, and the sentiments that you have shared? Isn't that what is exactly said about Muslim women? That they are oppressed, abused, not developing, the hijab is a control tool that literally prevents them from using their brains? the hijab is the literal flag of oppression? and more and more sentiments like those.

The information was not shared to "score points" for Islam and hijab, but rather, to simply respond with information to the comment made about the only thing missing from the ladies is a hijab. The dress code they have is what we see on tv, but the truth as to whether they are abused or not, only them and Allah SWT know.

And is it not harsh to the extreme to take kids away from their parents, who are alive and well, and give them to other people to raise them? The poor mothers are crying for their kids back. If it was any of us, and our kids were taken as these peoples kids have been, how would we feel? Who is oppressing who now in the name of child safety? There will always be cases of abuse unfortunately, all over the world, but what the "authorities" have done here is extreme and harsh, cruel and unusual punishment.

May their families be re-united, and may any issues plaguing that community be resolved, ameen.

Ali.
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Assalam Aleykum,

I agree that time is needed to study ISLAM , IMAN, AND IHSAN first, before getting to the issue of hijab. And we need to tread cautiously here, and use proper references from those who have spent their lives studying Islam and the Quran.

Regarding the articles, who is Mohammed Gill? I have never heard of him. Please do inform as to who he is. Is he a Muslim scholar in the ranks of almarhum Sheikh bin Baaz, or Sheikh Albani? Caution is urged as to where we get information from, although he does indicate correctly in the article two things:

"But, since hijab had been formally ordained by the Quran, there was no going back and it stayed irrevocably in the Muslim world."
And
"The debate on hijab and jilbab will presumably continue in the western world until the ghosts of xenophobia are laid to rest for ever."

The two points he has made speak for themselves - Allah SWT has ordered what needs to be done in the Quran, and both the ignorance of the masses, and the knowledge and understanding of those who push xenophobia with a less the honorable agenda in the west lead to continued debates over hijab in the west.

He, M Gill, forgot or overlooked to mention the hadith, where Prophet Muhammad SAW said that ladies should be covered for their own benefit except here and here, and when saying here and here, he was pointing at the hands and face.

And regarding hijab itself, what is hijab? Hijab is actually first and foremost a CHARACTERISTIC, an inner trait or quality of modesty, humility, respect, etc, that applies to BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, {note that men are listed first and then women, for men are supposed to be leaders, guides, and protectors of their families, and at large, the community} and then this characteristic is evidenced outwardly, in our instance, through our clothing. It just so happens that women carry a bigger flag of Islam, the literal hijab that we see, but men are supposed to do the same, in dressing modestly, respectfully, and humbly IN THEIR CHARACTERISTICS, and then their outward dress.

And look at America in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, look at how women dressed, even Mexico. They did not leave their homes unless their heads were covered in either shawls or large-brimmed hats or headcovering of some kind, and wearing long dresses, and same thing in Europe and elsewhere, where Islam in all these places was, for all intents and purposes, non-existent. Why so? And how and when did this all change?

And here you have said the following:

"Don't be surprised if you find that:
(a) Most of the WOMEN who oppose or don't wear HEJAB are EDUCATED and
(b) The WOMEN who wear BURQAS are mostly UNEDUCATED

What about EDUCATED Muslim WOMEN who wear BURQAS and HEJAB?
Ummmm!! "Peer pressure."

Two things I ask, bro. - what education are we talking about? Secular? Islamic? Both? None? Because being a Muslim is predicated on having knowledge on how to be and live as a Muslim. Islam is TO BE LIVED EVERYDAY, but to do so in ignorance is dangerous, as anything else done in ignorance is. You can have someone who has secular knowledge, but if the have little or no Islamic knowledge, then what u have stated above applies, that secularly educated women will oppose or not wear the hijab, as they have no Islamic reference or understanding to know otherwise. Education of ALL KINDS is to be emphasized, because the whole point to education , is to move from darkness into light, and especially for Muslims, TO AKNOWLEDGE ALLAH FROM WHATEVER WE LEARN, weather secular or Islamic.

And the second point you made as to why educated women wear burqas and hijab is because of peer pressure, why cannot it not be BECAUSE OF PERSONAL PLEASURE RATHER THAN PEER PRESSURE, AS THEY UNDERSTAND THE PREMISE BEHIND HIJAB. If its peer pressure, then they might as well be un-educated, because the whole point to being educated is to make INFORMED, KNOWLEDGE-BASED DECISIONS AFTER SERIOUS THOUGHT AND UNDERSTANDING, AND NOT MAKE DECISIONS UNDER DURESS OR PRESSURE.

Hence the first ayah, and command from Allah SWT to ALL OF HIS CREATION was IQRA - READ, which is more than just mere reading of words. Iqra entails reading, thinking, contemplating, analyzing, UNDERSTANDING, accepting, forming values and beliefs, and then application and maintenance of those values and beliefs on person, family, community, and ummah, and then further reading, growth, and that cycle is continuos until we die.

That is why Prophet Muhammad SAW said that make sure your today is better than your yesterday, and your tomorrow is better than your today, for if not, then you are as good as dead, because there is no growth and improvement.

We, as an ummah, need to get the basics right first, before we get to the additional matters in Islam. We want to build lofty buildings, but our foundations are lacking {foundations being knowledge and understanding of the basics}. The basics are simply, do we know who Allah SWT is? Do we know what He wants of us? Do we know our purpose in being here on this earth, in this world? Once these have been tackled, then we move on to other matters.

Thanks for sharing the articles, and may we all be blessed with greater understanding and unity. Allah SWT knows we need it.

Fi Amanillah,

Ali.
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Asalamu Alaikum,

Sheikh Ali, first and foremost jazzakumulkheir for taking the time to educate me and many who frequent this group. I took the time to read you response and reflected on how you phrased some of the answers.

Initially I took a negative position when you said, "we need to tread cautiously here, and use proper references from those who have spent their lives studying Islam and the Quran." I did not know what to think of it, but I finally brushed it as a curve ball trying to inhibit serious and honest discussion. I think you are honest and totally believe in all that you said. Your answer was more than agreeable literally, but I had some issues when it came to the practical application of what you said.

I took time to think and it was during Jumaa when something hit me. The guy giving hutbah looked shabby and would pass for a hoodlum. He was repeating the same weekly dosage that is full of empty nothing about why we are. Every now and then he would say if Muslims could just add one and one, then they could get two and on and on.

Being human I was every now and then thinking about which bills are due and looking left and right trying to observe who was better dressed than me. Yes me the flag bearer of Islam upstairs. All the other flag bearers were squeezed in the basement with children running around and some crying. Sometimes those flag bearers cannot even hear what the shabby looking IMAM was saying. A thought crossed my mind, "the flag bearers are just happy to be allowed in the MASJID basement. Why would they complain about anything, for they are the designated flag bearers OUTSIDE the MASJID."

Well, I was more than happy and satisfied to see very little competition apart from one African American behind me dressed in SUNNAH. The majority of the MEN, nothing but UN-SUNNAH clothing. There were some suits here and there, but the majority of the congregations, tight, yes very tight pants showing their bodies in a very UN-SUNNAH way.

Sheikh Ali I think it is imperative for us to be more than fair when it comes to the application of sunnah. Islam is fluid and mobile and if only men are allowed to move with the crowd, but women have to wait, then we are doing injustice to both Muslim Women and Islam. When Bin Baz and Albanni were alive, did they say anything for or against women being held behind or men dressed in shorts while participating in sports? I guess they too were busy thinking about how happy and satisfied Muslim women were with their position as the Flag bearers of the Muslim Identity.

If Muslim men can participate in anything without thinking about the "MUSLIM IDENTITY" so should MUSLIM WOMEN. In Pakistan, while playing cricket, men dress the same way like any cricket players anywhere in the world. In Saudi Arabia when men participate in soccer, they dress the same way like the Italians. Lastly, what sunnah clothing do Muslim men who have access to a beach observe? They wear swimming gear like the Sweedish do without a hoot about, "here and a here."

The majority of the Quran is directed to MEN and if there is going to be a flag bearer, then let it be a MAN. Why not, that is how all the armies do it. Finally, don't underestimate the power of peer pressure and the Stockholm effect. Muslim Women will do like any human being under duress.

I took what you wrote and created a question and answer about HEJAB. I hope you don’t mind some of the editing, but it should be a good starting point.

Q. Is Hejab for women only?
A. Hijab applies to BOTH MEN AND women, {note that MEN ARE LISTED FIRST and then women, for men are supposed to be leaders, guides, and protectors of their families, and at large, the community} and then this characteristic is evidenced outwardly, in our instance, through our clothing. It just so happens that women carry a bigger flag of Islam, the literal hijab that we see.

Q. Since men are listed first, don’t you think they should be the flag bearers?
A. The basics are simply, men know who Allah SWT is? We know what HE wants of us? We know our purpose in being here on this earth, in this world? Once women have tackled these basics, then they can move on to other matters.

Q. American and Mexican women in the 20s, 30s, and 40s did not leave their homes without HEJAB (their heads were covered in either shawls or large-brimmed hats or head covering of some kind, and wearing long dresses), and same thing in Europe and elsewhere. How and when did this all change?
A. Education is the main reason and I think once Muslim women have tackled these basics, then they too can grow. The whole point to being educated is to make INFORMED, KNOWLEDGE-BASED DECISIONS AFTER SERIOUS THOUGHT AND UNDERSTANDING, AND NOT MAKE DECISIONS UNDER DURESS OR PRESSURE.

Q. What education are we talking about? Secular? Islamic? Both?
A. Education of ALL KINDS is to be emphasized, because the whole point to education is to move from darkness into light. Prophet Muhammad SAW said that make sure your today is better than your yesterday, and your tomorrow is better than your today, for if not, then you are as good as dead, because there is no growth and improvement?

Shukran,

Mohamed Ahmed
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Assalam Aleykum,

Shukran Mohamed for your response, and to others who have participated. Dear sisters, how about we get your input on the matter that is being discussed, as it affects you all.

I would like to state that, first, any correct and beneficial information that comes from this and other discussions, is a blessing and benefit from Allah SWT. Any wrong or mistakes presented are mine, and I ask for forgiveness and to be corrected.

The statement that im throwing "a curve ball trying to inhibit serious and honest discussion" is an incorrect assumption, for in no way does a suggestion of caution indicate that, and furthermore, I have no right to do so {I dont like Texas Rangers sport, baseball, much, but ukisema "bend it like beckham, banana free kicks, original mpira, thats my cup of tea :-), but back to seriousness :-) },

If anything, as like everyone else, I am looking to learn and grow, and look forward to meaningful, critically constructive debates that can help us a a community and an ummah rise up from the malaise that plagues us. This would be in keeping with the stellar muslim communities that contributed so much to humanity in eras gone by.

You have asked some very good questions, and I will say this, from the little that I know:

First and foremost, MEN ARE REQUIRED TO BE THE FLAGBEARERS OF ISLAM. Why? Because Allah SWT has given them the responsibility of leading their families. Leadership is a trust that Allah SWT has placed on men, and please note, I am not talking about dictatorship.

Prophet Muhammad SAW said {and i'm paraphrasing the hadith here} if you want to know the condition of an ummah, look at the women. If they are abiding by and are knowledgeable about Islam as is their right {they observe swala, hijab, are protected and respected etc}, and are not venturing out from their homes unnecessarily, then that means that society is a blessed society, because the men are fulfilling their obligations as leaders of their families, and hence the community, making sure that their families are righteously guided, knowledgeable, and empowered. {The home is the most protective and secure place for women, hence, for example, they are not required like men to pray in masjids, for example, but they can if they want to, and also can pursue matters such as education, business, etc outside their homes. Men have the responsibility of taking care of their wives and daughters financial and other needs, amongst other rights that women have}.

But if in the society women are doing as they please, meaning leaving their homes unnecessarily, no hijab, amongst other things, and the men are not fulfilling their God given responsibility of leadership, and women feel obligated to then undertake this responsibility, then that society is doomed, not because women are not capable leaders, but because the men are not fulfilling their obligations, period, and women are taking up an additional obligation on top of what they have already. {Women are very able organisers, planners, leaders, etc Look at the wives of Prophet Muhammad SAW, and how the contributed to the knowledge of Islam, and how women run and maintain homes}

So men are required to be leaders, but to be effective leaders, they need to be knowledgeable as to what that responsibility entails. So, in my view, men have in general short changed themselves and their families, and in a larger context, the ummah, hence our current situation as muslims. Case in point - education is a right upon every human being - but look at how, generally speaking, the women in our soceity for example are short-changed big time regarding education. They are robbed of their God given right to an education, many being told utasoma mpaka lini, na mwishoe utakwishia jikoni? or girls being pulled out of primary classes to be married off ....

Second, you said it ..... "Islam is fluid and mobile and if only men are allowed to move with the crowd, but women have to wait, then we are doing injustice to both Muslim Women and Islam." I concur 100%, for in no way can a society be built, developed, and improved if only one half of the society, the men, are getting their rights, and the other half are oppressed, denied of their God given rights because of ignorance and cultural practices that have no basis in Islam. Women have the same rights and responsibilities as men in front of Allah's SWT eyes.

"If Muslim men can participate in anything without thinking about the "MUSLIM IDENTITY" so should MUSLIM WOMEN". Muslim men and women are required to develop their muslim identity. The lack of this identity is the foundation of the myriad of problems affecting muslims, the lack of understanding and appreciating our muslim identity. Without this, how can we be expected to appreciate and live as per islamic requirements? If men as supposed to be the leaders, should they not be the first ones to give an example of what having an islamic identity entails?? And do we as men do so? Many of the muslim communities issues begin here.

"When Bin Baz and Albanni were alive, did they say anything for or against women being held behind or men dressed in shorts while participating in sports? Yes, they did, feverently so, they called out and educated the masses against women being oppressed, and the dress of men while participating in sports, amongst other things, and not of their own whims and words, but using Allah's guidance to address these issues, especially as they were living in Saudia. "I guess they too were busy thinking about how happy and satisfied Muslim women were with their position as the Flag bearers of the Muslim Identity". They were disturbed with this being the apparent case, and always called for this to be addressed, corrected, through knowledge and understanding of everyones rights and responsibilities.

Third, before we walk, we have to crawl. Before getting into the sunnahs, which are important, we need to get the basics, the faraidh, understood, established and implemented properly, by both men and women, and then we can expand on that. We need a solid foundation to build on, otherwise, things will be wishy washy, not firm enough, like building on quicksand.

Fourth, just to add to what bro Fayyadh has said, I have heard from a friend who is a pilot with Saudia Airlines that when brothers and sisters are on the flights out from Jeddah to USA, for instance, when the plane is taking off, the seats are a sea of kanzus and habayas, and then half way into the flight, when safe and sound from Saudi airspace, an amazing transformation takes place - the habayas, hijabs and kanzus mostly all dissappear, to be replaced by whatever one fancies, and upon tochdown, a completely different group of people get off the plane than the ones that took off . The reverse happens when flights are going back to Saudia. The whole point to sharing this is that, as long as people are forced to do things {mutawa or not :-) }, any time they get a moments reprieve, they will take advantage of it big time.

Last, Fayyadh said it, that the Quran is directed at both men and women, and he explained the use of the language which addresses both men and women.

I like the way you formulated the questions and answers from the previous email, bro Mohamed. May we all be blessed and guided righteously, ameen.

I look forward to learning more, inshaallah.

Fi Amanillah,

Ali.